And I ain’t much into that bukakke stuff, personally.

*cough*liar*cough*

Heh...all this talk about corn, holes, and boo khaki in one post...that should really bump you up on the google pervs' searches....:P

No matter what you think happened on 911...let me re-phrase that, we know what happened, we don't know why or how it happed.

But, no matter your opinion of the events of 9/11, the one thing that is becoming obvious is that the Bush administration and the Pentagon have worked double-overtime to cover-up key parts of the story, even apparently to the 9/11 Commisssion.

Once they are disgraced, and thrown out of power, we will see the people who have been frightened into silence- military officers, and senior staff- emboldened enough to come out with the truth.

That will be a major re-shaping moment in the experiment that is America.

It's just the usual stock in trade of the conspiracy theorist. They have their answer, then they go ahead and fit everything to support it, sort of like hanging the roof in the air and then building the house underneath. And if something doesn't fit the conspiracy theory it is thrown away.

Zorro, as usual, provides a good example. He believes that the Bush administration are liars. So the 9/11 events could not have occurred the way the government has portrayed them because if they did, Bush would have to have told the truth. So that means that senior officials and military officers have been forced into silence. And once the administration leaves power these officials and officers will speak out and tell the truth.

The problem with all of these conspiracy theories is that they hold together in their self-contained world, but they don't hold together outside of them. Let me elaborate, with Zorro's comment as the example.

The Bush administration has lied about 9/11, it didn't happen the way the official story came out, and they have frightened others in the government to go along.

Fine, that works.

First question: what happens if a frightened official speaks up? Why, that official is slandered and destroyed like Richard Clarke and Joe Wilson and many, many others! See the perfidy!

The problem is that Clarke, Wilson, et al. have not been destroyed. They've done pretty well with speaking engagements and book deals and interviews. Seriously, if this administration was that malicious and competent to pull off 9/11 then why are Clarke, Wilson, et al. still breathing? Why weren't they removed to make sure others stay silent? For evil overlord theo-fascist warmongering zionist-controlled oil-thieves, they sure have treated their enemies rather softly. We know what Saddam did to opponents and the best these guys can do is "out" Valerie Plame in hope that someone, somewhere, may do something to her?

Lame, lame, lame. That is the problem, the disconnect, that shows a conspiracy theory is bull. The administration doesn't balk at a major mind-boggling piece of treachery like 9/11, but does balk handle its critics in the way a two-bit mobster would. They run from deepest decisive evil to...nothing. They'll send a 757 into the World Trade Center, but they can't find someone to take Richard Clarke for a "ride" and lose him somewhere, such as Chesapeake Bay, in a 55 gallon drum full of concrete.

Umm, can we get back to the pervy discussion? That's a funner topic for my birthday ;^)

Question for Mike: Have you watched Loose Change?

Questions that have yet to be answered, specifically relating to the NORAD taped released to Vanity Fair:

1. Who was responsible for scheduling multiple war games and terror exercises involving aircraft for Sept. 11th

2. Who moved "Global Guardian" normally scheduled for October to September?

3. Who designed the war games to involve 'hijackings'?

4. Who planned and scheduled the movement of Airforce aircraft north to Canada, Alaska and Greenland?

5. Who planned the terror exercise at the NSA involving an evacuation in response to threat from the air?

6. Who was "hands-on" responsible for coordinating all the war games the morning of September 11th?

7. Who would have been responsible for turning off the war games to enable a timely real world response to the attacks?

8. How were as many as 21 false radar blips or possible targets (per Jane Garvey) inserted into FAA radar screens?

9. Who was responsible for the identification of ghost flight 11 which allegedly continued to fly south past Manhattan and which may have caused NORAD's Langley intercept jets to vector North toward NYC rather than D.C.?

10. Why was there no reference to the pattern of 9/11 Commission cover-up including that of Able Danger as revealed by Capt. Scott Philpott?

And the most important question: Who cares? There is so much disinformation and outright bullshit incorporated ... nay, tightly packed into all those questions, Z, that they're really not worth considering.

But consider this: Why was green Jello served in the Coyote Bar's jello-shots on 9/11, instead of the usual red? Because it was a code, a code to tell the Jews (green=money=Jooos, get it?) not to go to work that day.

Now there's some real proof for you.

Or was it red Jello instead of green? I confess, I just can't keep track of all the idiotic, lame, ridiculously constipated conspiracy theories out there. Probably because I just don't want to.

"And the most important question: Who cares?"

...with blinders firmly in place, and mind in auto-shutdown, Joe moves on to the next topic.

You guys all being military types, or at least philes, I would think that you would like to know why there was so much confusion and ineptitude abounding that day.

Who could envision a complicated conspiracy involving multiple people and the shutting down of multiple lines of defense yet at the same time that conspiracy wasn't wily enough to have contingency plans to remove any and all detractors?

Who would expect a complex, multi-level plan involving the subversion of multiple agencies and people timed perfectly to work flawlessly first try without any practice or drills involving those people or agencies?

Who claims that the president and all who work for him are utter morons who have to be reminded to breathe on a regular basis, yet attribute this enterprise to them?

Who can believe the president either planned this or had prior knowledge of it yet let it happen, yet at the same time lampoons him as an imbecile struck helpless as he reads "My Pet Goat" to schoolchildren?

Who can believe that this conspiracy was able to hide its tracks from multiple investigations that included members of another political party, members who are hostile to the administration and its party, members who are politically powerful and savvy in their own right, yet the conspiracy can be unearthed easily by a bunch of college students - you know, they'd have gotten away with it if it wasn't for those meddling kids?

Who posits all that in defiance of Murphy's Law, Occam's Razor, and simple common-or-garden-variety sense?

Bonus Question:
Who arranged for the German command in Normandy to hold map-table invasion exercises on June 6, 1944?

"You guys all being military types, or at least philes, I would think that you would like to know why there was so much confusion and ineptitude abounding that day. "

Because that is common when something unexpected happens.
Why was the US Army Air Force in the Phillippines caught on the ground by the Japanese when they had been alerted hours before that Pearl Harbor had been attacked? Why hadn't the Cavite navy yard, which had multiple warnings of possible Japanese agression, dispersed its torpedo storage and machine shops instead of keeping them in soft buildings were they were easily destroyed?

That's why the military has given us such useful acronyms as FUBAR, SNAFU, HUA, and CF.
(But not this CF).

Mikey, your comparisons don't hold water, and you know it. SO MUCH was FUBAR on 9/11 that it is literally unbelievable.

So much was SNAFU, in exactly the perfect way for the hijackers to exploit the situation that you either have to conclude that they had intelligence access to the highest levels of out government, or the cooperation of same.

an aside...

John Conyers:

"We could get no response from the president" about their concerns over pre-war intelligence and the march to war in Iraq, he said. "Then we tried to get hearings in the Judiciary Committee," which met with a "no way" response, according to Conyers.

"We said, 'look, we'll do it ourselves'" -- compile a document that lists every instance of alleged wrongdong by the Bush administration's handling of intelligence, the war in Iraq, and retaliation against those who tried to speak out about it. "Every sentence, every allegation, every accusation that we have in this 371-page report has a citation or a reference to it of where we got it," Conyers explained, with a hint of pride at his staff's work.

"We're not trying to play Department of Justice or prosecutor. We're trying to put [these charges] on the record before too much other history blurs this," Conyers told me. "[We are] making sure that what we see as at least a couple dozen violations of federal statute do not go unnoticed. . . . We're trying to make sure that we have the fullest record of this, so that this won't be the work of industrious historians ten years from now."

371 pages...that's a lot of wrong doing! Good reading

And so much in the assumption of the cooperation/access theory is so far off the map of human performance as to be unbelieveable. Simply unbelieveable that it could be pulled off that flawlessly with disparate groups in the government subverting everything around them - flawlessly and timed perfectly.

Much harder to believe than that four cells could board airliners at roughly the same time and hijack them. And considering the amount of time between hijackings and impacts, the amount of time necessary for people in these different agencies to come to alert, realize what is actually happening, and then try to coordinate and counter it is really not hard to believe in the four cells without government cooperation.

The events happened so quickly that the US decision cycle was not able to get ahead of the hijackers. A simple, easy plan was put into gear and we were caught flat-footed.

I know it is hard to try, but deal with it.*

*SNAFU and FUBAR? Have you ever heard of Savo Island? The Guadalcanal invasion force, in August 1942 was caught completely by surprise by a Japanese surface force. Heavy cruisers USS Astoria, USS Quincy, USS Vincennes, and RAN Canberra were sunk. The Japanese loss happened on the way back when a submarine sank one of their cruisers.

Poor communications, bad doctrine, lost reports and sightings, poor dispositions - all doomed those ships.

Sometimes bad things happen; and when they do, they are really, really bad things. Deal with it.

371 pages of mistakes made in a world-wide war with two major military campaigns? A war nearly five years old, one campaign that long and another over three years old and all they have are 371 pages of mistakes?

Man, I didn't realize we were doing that good!

All war is a series of mistakes. Try reading some military history some time and you'll see them, sometimes that's all you see.

"The events happened so quickly that the US decision cycle was not able to get ahead of the hijackers"

Have you read the VF piece? If you read it and listen to the clips, it sounds like the Navy air-traffic controller had a deliberate stand down policy on the morning of the attacks.

why?

Even the author, who poo-poos the conspiracy-theories involving US collusion, writes that it is obvious that the Pentagon covered up key facts and lied to the 9/11 commission.

why? I thought we're all on the same team. we were attacked, and the commission wanted to put together a report that detailed how it was done, so that we could prevent it happening again.

why would the Pentagon not want to cooperate?

Memo to CF crew: until you are willing to engage yourself in explaining the very real questions that remain unanswered about the events of 9/11, such as Sibel Edmonds experiences, or more illuminating, William Rodriquiz's, you are just making an ass of yourself when you mention 9/11. And in light of the now mainstream realization that the Pentagon LIED to the 9/11 Commission, only a fool would accept the "official version" of the events of that day. So, instead of taking the tack that questions do not exist, why don't you just attempt to answer some of the questions?

Memo to Zorro:
You don't give orders here.
Second Memo to Zorro:
Don't forget first memo.

Why wouldn't the Pentagon cooperate? If that is true perhaps they are embarrassed their doctrine was spun so hard by the bad guys; and perhaps they don't want to announce what their new policies are going to be; and perhaps you have bureaucratic infighting - DoD is going to set its own policies, not have some commission set them.

Regarding the air controller it is very plausible that they were reluctant to fire upon airliners. It was a confusing situation. Would you want to give that order and find out it was a mistake?

Occam's Razor - there is the likely explanation.

"Why wouldn’t the Pentagon cooperate? If that is true perhaps they are embarrassed their doctrine was spun so hard by the bad guys"

I'll have to look it up to be sure...but wasn't everyone who testified to the commission under oath, except Bush and Cheney?

"Regarding the air controller it is very plausible that they were reluctant to fire upon airliners. It was a confusing situation. Would you want to give that order and find out it was a mistake?"

The order was not to fire...only Cheney could give that order. The order was to locate the hijacked airliner. The navy controller was told to turn his fighters from their heading towrds NYC and go towards Baltimore and intercept:

9:34 on September 11, 2001.

At this point in the timeline, NORAD commanders were becoming increasingly frustrated at their impotence and inability to successfully intercept any of the stray aircraft. Erroneous reports of hijacked aircraft that never were and a report that a Cessna, not American Airlines Flight 11, has hit the WTC north tower, are adding to the confusion.

However, the NORAD ground ops know that something is headed towards Washington and they are chomping at the bit to turn around fighters that have been meandering in a stand-by position and send them in the direction of Baltimore.

From the Vanity Fair piece,

"At NEADS, a 28-year-old staff sergeant named William Huckabone, staring at his Green Eye, is the first to notice that the Langley jets are off course. His voice is a mix of stress and dread as he and the controller next to him, Master Sergeant Steve Citino, order a navy air-traffic controller who's handling the fighters to get them turned around toward Baltimore to try to cut off the phantom American 11. The navy air-traffic controller seems not to understand the urgency of the situation."

The conversation with Navy ATC takes place four minutes before Flight 77 hits the Pentagon.

9:34:12
NAVY A.T.C.: You've got [the fighters] moving east in airspace. Now you want 'em to go to Baltimore?
HUCKABONE: Yes, sir. We're not gonna take 'em in Whiskey 386 [military training airspace over the ocean].
NAVY A.T.C.: O.K., once he goes to Baltimore, what are we supposed to do?
HUCKABONE: Have him contact us on auxiliary frequency 2-3-4 decimal 6. Instead of taking handoffs to us and us handing 'em back, just tell Center they've got to go to Baltimore.
NAVY A.T.C.: All right, man. Stand by. We'll get back to you.
CITINO: What do you mean, "We'll get back to you"? Just do it!
HUCKABONE: I'm gonna choke that guy!
CITINO: Be very professional, Huck.
HUCKABONE: O.K.
CITINO: All right, Huck. Let's get our act together here.

The fighters never arrive, Flight 77 ploughs into the Pentagon.

This is AFTER the president has been told "we're under attack". CNN is reporting terrorists using airplanes as bombs. The Emergency Response Plan—CONPLAN (Interagency Domestic Terrorism Concept of Operations Plan) was activated at 8:46 am.

At 9:34, Navy air traffic control "didn't know what was going on", yet they had fighters in the air. Does that sound right to you?

It sounds deliberate to me.

Zorro,

I can't answer your question whether BUSH or CHENEY were under oath during their testimony.

However, I do know that their testimony was conducted in the exact same manner as the Testimony of Bill Clinton (albeit with SANDY BURGLAR stealing and destroying secret files before hand).

And I know what a peacetime mentality looks like, as opposed to a wartime mentality. And that the time frame was so short between the hijackings and the crashings. I can understand that orders were not given to shoot down civilian airliners that originated in the United States, when NORAD was looking outward as always, then having to spin around, and identify multiple flights, confirm them, and direct them to land. I understand confusion and alarm when something unprecedented happens.

I can understand how the humans in a large government entity do not act quickly when only complete understanding of the situation as it unfolded and complete coordination could have prevented it or given the split-second reaction necessary. I know how wrong orders can be given and stupid things done by the humans in charge.

I understand Savo Island, I understand the action off of Samar in October of 1944. I understand FUBAR and SNAFU. But you don't understand HUA.

The muslim bad guys who planned this were not stupid, they saw a hole and exploited it and everything reacted, but not fast enough mentally or physically. The muslim bad guys claimed responsibility because they figured nothing big would be done. They figured as bad as the Japanese figured in November 1941.

They are all human, you know.

I also know how you have gone from MIHOP to LIHOP to Why Didn't They Act Faster.

Hey Zorro, why don't you memo in one hand and shit in the other, see which one fills up first?

Dumbass.

And your conspiracy theories are just as idiotic as the moonbats claiming FDR knew about, condoned, or even conspired in the Dec. 7, 1941 attack on Pearl Harbor.

Gawd, can you wind that tinfoil beanie down any tighter?

Zorro:

I confess I'm curious.

How do you reconcile the stupidity of the Dread Dullard Cowboy Shrimpy McBushitler Who Lead Us Into An Unwinnable Quagmire...

with the kind of malignant brilliance it would take to pull off a maskirova like you now seem to believe happened in New York?

And howinhell do you expect us to believe that a culture as leak-ridden as the intel community we currently "enjoy" would be able to keep a secret like this?

And if Bush's Cabal is that effective, skillful, ruthless, and dire, why are the "Loose Cannon" folks still alive?

For that matter, as opposed as I am to large portions of the Patriot Act, how come I still live?

curious,
De Doc

It isn't just GWB, there is a chain of command and operations that were under unexpected attack. Information and doctrine were not as clear down the whole network among all the necessary agencies as it would be in the best case scenario, specifically because it was the worst case scenario. I recall that only one battleship got underway at Pearl Harbor, and that was darn near miraculous given the time needed to get a ship moving from cold start back then. (That battlewagon was the USS Nevada.) The air defense system was basically going from "condition white" and no threat to life or death, in a matter of something like an hour. The damage to the towers was done within minutes of any hijack warning, which had to go up and through chains of command, be verified, etc. and processed. Yes, it was all over the media, and there was still inertia in the system that day. This was no conspiracy, or deliberate malfeasance. It was the product of years of doctrine and practice and ramping down of readiness from the levels it had been at during the Cold War for those East Coast fighter units, which were mostly Air National Guard. It also was contributed to by the fact that said pilots had trained for years to intercept hostile attack from the ocean, with not as much emphasis placed on the nightmare scenario of having to shoot down a hijacked civilian airliner plane.

Um, wouldn't it be spelled "dhimmwits?"

From Dean's World comes this link to the shortest de-bunking of "Loose Change".

This common sense applied like sulphuric acid to stupid.

Oh, and there is this.

Zorro, that smell is us cooking you a steaming piled high plate of your ass, again. Don't you ever get tired of being such a loser?

How do you reconcile the stupidity of the Dread Dullard Cowboy Shrimpy McBushitler Who Lead Us Into An Unwinnable Quagmire…
with the kind of malignant brilliance it would take to pull off a maskirova like you now seem to believe happened in New York?
And howinhell do you expect us to believe that a culture as leak-ridden as the intel community we currently “enjoy” would be able to keep a secret like this?

One word: Mossad. One of the biggest mysteries of 9/11 concerns the "5 dancing Israelis" and the company they worked for, Urban Moving Systems. The company was shut down and it's owner fled to Israel with little more than he could carry, after his "employees" were caught.

Police Chief John Schmidig said: “We got an alert to be on the lookout for a white Chevrolet van with New Jersey registration and writing on the side. Three individuals were seen celebrating in Liberty State Park after the impact. They said three people were jumping up and down.”

By 4pm on the afternoon of September 11, the van was spotted near New Jersey’s Giants stadium. A squad car pulled it over and inside were five men in their 20s. They were hustled out of the car with guns levelled at their heads and handcuffed.

In the car was $4700 in cash, a couple of foreign passports and a pair of box cutters – the concealed Stanley Knife-type blades used by the 19 hijackers who’d flown jetliners into the World Trade Centre and Pentagon just hours before. There were also fresh pictures of the men standing with the smouldering wreckage of the Twin Towers in the background. One image showed a hand flicking a lighter in front of the devastated buildings, like a fan at a pop concert. The driver of the van then told the arresting officers: “We are Israeli. We are not your problem. Your problems are our problems. The Palestinians are the problem.”

His name was Sivan Kurzberg. The other four passengers were Kurzberg’s brother Paul, Yaron Shmuel, Oded Ellner and Omer Marmari. The men were dragged off to prison and transferred out of the custody of the FBI’s Criminal Division and into the hands of their Foreign Counterintelligence Section – the bureau’s anti-espionage squad.

A warrant was issued for a search of the Urban Moving premises in Weehawken in New Jersey. Boxes of papers and computers were removed. The FBI questioned the firm’s Israeli owner, Dominik Otto Suter, but when agents returned to re-interview him a few days later, he was gone. An employee of Urban Moving said his co-workers had laughed about the Manhattan attacks the day they happened. “I was in tears,” the man said. “These guys were joking and that bothered me. These guys were like, ‘Now America knows what we go through.’”

Since the conspiracy theories that say the US government made it happen/let it happen aren't selling...

Since it is against all he holds dear to believe Al Qaeda must have done it, like Al Qaeda admitted...

The ultimate fall back is reached: Blame The Jews/Israelis.

/sarcasm on/
Though I do admit I am completely stumped, stumped I say, for a reason that explains why a moving company might have boxcutters made by Stanley, one of the largest tool manufacturers in the US.
Nope. That stumps me. /sarcasm off/

/sarcasm on/
Though I do admit I am completely stumped, stumped I say, for a reason that explains why a moving company might have boxcutters made by Stanley, one of the largest tool manufacturers in the US.
Nope. That stumps me. /sarcasm off/

...again, blinders firmly in place.

Of all the oddness concerning the five dancers, you choose to comment on the only minor and insignificant aspect of the incident.

MOVE ALONG! Nothing to see here!

No, dumbass, we're mocking you, not commenting on your absolute drooling idiocy. Or is it insanity? It's so hard to tell the difference these days.

I see you still fail to comment on any real issues in any really substantive manner, and insist on wasting our time with your moronic conspiracy theories that would shame a Bircher.

Now shove off pissant. The adults are trying to converse.

"No, dumbass, we’re mocking you, not commenting on your absolute drooling idiocy. Or is it insanity? It’s so hard to tell the difference these days.
I see you still fail to comment on any real issues in any really substantive manner, and insist on wasting our time with your moronic conspiracy theories that would shame a Bircher.
Now shove off pissant. The adults are trying to converse."

More of the same bullshit from the same striped-assed ape. Pissing on rocks, thumping chest proudly...

NOTHING TO SEE HERE...MOVE ALONG.

The really glaring thing is how perfectly you avoid the, shall we say intriguing, questions.

Now back to your regularly scheduled program of calling me names.

"Intriguing", are they? My, what a perfectly mah-velous and novel use of the English language!

The underlying premises of those "questions" of yours, which bear a remarkable resemblance to what we adults term "statements unsupported by facts", are in fact so ridiculous that they don't even require comment.

By adults.

Good thing you're here, then, I suppose.

Tried scrolling up the main page recently? No? Ever wonder why?

Obsession.

Not just a perfume any more.

Good article:

THERE was ruin and terror in Manhattan, but, over the Hudson River in New Jersey, a handful of men were dancing. As the World Trade Centre burned and crumpled, the five men celebrated and filmed the worst atrocity ever committed on American soil as it played out before their eyes.
Who do you think they were? Palestinians? Saudis? Iraqis, even? Al-Qaeda, surely? Wrong on all counts. They were Israelis – and at least two of them were Israeli intelligence agents, working for Mossad, the equivalent of MI6 or the CIA.

Their discovery and arrest that morning is a matter of indisputable fact. To those who have investigated just what the Israelis were up to that day, the case raises one dreadful possibility: that Israeli intelligence had been shadowing the al-Qaeda hijackers as they moved from the Middle East through Europe and into America where they trained as pilots and prepared to suicide-bomb the symbolic heart of the United States. And the motive? To bind America in blood and mutual suffering to the Israeli cause.

After the attacks on New York and Washington, the former Israeli Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, was asked what the terrorist strikes would mean for US-Israeli relations. He said: “It’s very good.” Then he corrected himself, adding: “Well, it’s not good, but it will generate immediate sympathy [for Israel from Americans].”

The United Kingdom's Prime Minister Winston Churchill, on hearing that the attack on Pearl Harbor had finally drawn the United States into the war, wrote: "Being saturated and satiated with emotion and sensation, I went to bed and slept the sleep of the saved and thankful."

I suppose some will now believe Winston Churchill planned and executed the Pearl Harbor attack. (From Wikipedia)

Damn Zorro. Now even the lurkers are coming out to spank your pathetic ass.

Look, you're obviously mentally ill and completely unable to cope with the reality of Muslim plans for all non-Muslims, (death or subjugation) and the fact that George W. Bush has a better approach to that problem than the entire Left put together. Being sick in the head, you make up these bullshit conspiracy theories to explain away the reality you simply can't confront directly.

Why don't you step away from the keyboard and go get some counseling for your BDS? Maybe a few hours a week on the psychiatrist's couch will do you some good.

Ummm, yeah. Whateva.